Threads beginning 10/04/00 - 10/17/00.

Captain Britain - flashbacks and Final chronology

Posted by Jeph York on October 04, 2000 at 00:04:10: 

Me again, with the third and hopefully final installment of good ol' CB's pre-US chronology. This time around I'm going to cover the flashbacks in US books that need to be slotted into the UK books' chronologies, then put the whole thing together in proper MCP format. 

There are five flashbacks, mostly in issues of Excalibur, that highlight new information about the Captain's pre-US comic days, and need to be integrated into his UK chronology. They are as follows: 
Excalibur #4, 36, 53, Annual #2
and Marvel Team-Up #65. 

Of these five, Russ has already correctly placed Excalibur #36 and 53. Nothing need be said about them. 

Excalibur Annual #2, however, contains a flashback -- one of Psylocke's memories -- to the earliest appearance of the Captain; back to when he was just a small child. He and his sister [Psylocke] are being babysat by their older brother Jamie. This flashback is the earliest chronological appearance for all three, and should be noted as such in their chronologies. 

Excalibur #4 contains something that may or may not be considered a flashback: a photograph, of a previously unknown event in CB's life. On page one of the issue, Courtney Ross is holding a photo of her and CB at a "kiss Captain Britain" charity booth. The voiceover informs us that she bought out the whole roll of tickets. I think it merits a flashback entry, since it's the only solid evidence ever presented that CB and Courtney were once an item. 
As to placing it: first of all, it has to go before M/TU#65, because that was the point at which CB left Britain for a good long time and returned a changed man (with a changed outfit). It should most likely come after SSM&CB #238, which was Courtney Ross' last appearance in the CB books, and at which point she and CB had not yet acknowledged their feelings. 

Therefore, the book occurs somewhere during SSM&CB #s 239 and 247. And since the development of a relationship that they purport to have shared, occuring completely off-panel, needs a good long gap to have occured in, I tend to place this flashback between SSM&CB#247 and M/TU#65 -- wherein CB shows up in America as an exchange student, another life change that would have taken quite a while to initiate. A story gap of a few months is therefore implied, and CB's relationship with Courtney -- as well as being approached to man a charity kissing booth -- could easily have occured in that gap. 

As for the flashbacks in M/TU#65 ... well, I mentioned before that it's something of a "director's cut" version of CB's origin -- both issues were written by Claremont, and he seemed to want to touch-up his earlier rushed origin story with some more moody details. 

Bearing in mind that only incidents in M/TU#65 that are completely new -- not a different artist's slightly different interpretations of the same events -- are relevant, here's a page/panel run-down of how M/TU#65 fits in with the origin flashbacks in CB#1-2. 

Pages in question:
CB1, pages 3-7
CB2, pages 1-5
M/TU#65, story pages 12-15 
CB1 - pp3-5; p6 pn 1-2
MTU - p12, pn 1 -added shot of Stragg's men actually firing at Brian while he flees on motorbike.
CB1 - p6, pn 3
MTU - p12, pn 4 -added line of dialogue for Brian
CB1 - p6, pn 5-6
MTU - p13, pn 1 -added line of dialogue for Roma
CB1 - p7, pn 1-2
MTU - p13, pn 3-7 -the landscape around Brian is actually physically changed in a flash of light
CB1 - p7, pn 4
MTU - p14 -padding CB1 p7 pn4 with more dialogue between Brian, Roma, and Merlin
MTU - p15, pn 1-2 -padding Brian's choice between the amulet and the sword; laid-back and out loud -- obviously Stragg's men have not shown up yet (as they do in CB2 p1 pn1)
CB1 - p7, pn 5 (Merlin demands that Brian choose now)
CB2 - p1 (Merlin delivers the same line of dialogue -- but this time, Stragg's men have found and surrounded Brian)
CB2 - p2, pn 1-2 (Brian decides his choice internally, and grasps the amulet)
MTU - p15, pn 3-5 -Brian vocalizes his choice, holding the amulet aloft
MTU - p15, pn 6 -new narration implying a previously unseen action by Roma -- she smiles, blessing Brian's choice
CB2 - p2, pn 3-5; pp4-5 (the origian continues as normal) 

Now, this is annoyingly long notation even for me. Going with this sort of chronology would lead to an MCP entry of CB1-FB/MTU65-FB/CB1-FB/MTU65-FB/CB1-FB/MTU65-FB/CB1-FB/MTU65-FB/CB1-FB/MTU65-FB/CB1-FB/CB2-FB/MTU65-FB/CB2-FB, and nobody wants that. Blech. This sort of attention to detail may do for Spider-Man's origin, but even I will admit that Captain Britain is no Spider-Man. Therefore I propose that the MCP entry combining the two versions of CB's origin be streamlined to: 

CB 1-FB
M/TU 65-FB
CB 1-FB
CB 2-FB
M/TU 65-FB
CB 2-FB 

Nice and simple. It tells you that the flashbacks in CB #s 1 and 2 comprise the origin itself, while the M/TU flashback takes place in and around them. 

If the lines of thinking above are acceptable to the MCP staff, then I propose the following (including my two previous posts on the subject as well as this one) for a US/UK integrated early chronology for Captain Britain. 
mini-Key:

CB = Captain Britain (volume 1)
CB2 = Captain Britain (volume 2)
DDS = The Daredevils
HC = Hulk Comic/Incredible Hulk Weekly
M/SH MAG = Marvel Super-Heroes (the UK magazine)
MWM/2 = Mighty World of Marvel (volume 2)
SSM&CB = Super Spider-Man (and Captain Britain)/Spider-Man Weekly 
all other abbreviations conform to the Key. 

I am condensing "runs" (eg CB 1-10) into one line, instead of ten separate lines, only because I don't want this listing to scroll on forever. Otherwise, I strive to maintain the MCP format. (2) indicates the second story in a book; (2) next to a run ("HC 3-8 [2]") indicates that it is the second story in every issue in the run that is being referenced. 

CAPTAIN BRITAIN / Brian Braddock
XCAL@2-FB
DDS 1-FB
CB 14-FB
DDS 2-FB
DDS 1-FB
XCAL 36-FB
CB 1-FB
M/TU 65-FB
CB 1-FB
CB 2-FB
M/TU 65-FB
CB 2-FB
CB 1 thru 10
CB 11-FB
CB 11 thru 18
CB 26-FB
CB 20 thru 32
CB 33-FB
CB 33 thru 39
SSM&CB 231 thru 247 (2)
XCAL 4-FB
M/TU 65
M/TU 66
XCAL 53-FB
HC 42 (3)-FB
HC 43 (2)-FB
HC 1 (2)
HC 3 thru 8 (2)
HC 10 thru 16 (2)
HC 20 thru 23 (2)
HC 25 thru 30 (2)
HC 42 (3)
HC 43 (2)
HC 44 (2)
HC 45 (2)
HC 48 (2)
HC 52 thru 55 (2)
HC 57 thru 60 (2)
H2 250
COC 1
COC 2
COC 3
M/SH MAG 377
M/SH MAG 385
M/SH MAG 377 thru 384
M/SH MAG 386
M/SH MAG 387
M/SH MAG 388
DDS 1 thru 4
H2 279
DDS 5 thru 11
ROM 65
ROM 66-BTS
CA 305
CA 306
CA 307
MWM/2 7-FB
MWM/2 8 thru 15
MWM/2 16-FB
MWM/2 16-FB
MWM/2 16
CB2 1
CB2 2
CB2 3-FB
CB2 3
CB2 4
CB2 5-FB
CB2 5
CB2 6-FB
CB2 5 thru 9
CB2 13-FB
CB2 10 thru 14
NM@2
...and so on, into the already-established chronology on the MCP. 

That should do it for Captain Britain's run in the early UK titles. I hope the MCP finds this useful. However, other characters besides the good Captain showed up in these UK titles -- many of whom already have chronologies on the MCP -- and their UK appearances need to be chronicled as well. 

All of which means ... I'LL BE BACK. 

-Jeph!

as always, feel free to reply, discuss, or e-mail me privately if you feel I have not backed my decisions up enough or have used faulty logic. Thanks. 

	Reply
Re: Captain Britain - flashbacks and Final chronology

Posted by Alan Stewart on October 13, 2000 at 22:51:34: 

Jeph, great job with Captain Britain's chronology up to the "Excalibur" run. Are you planning to integrate "Knights of Pendragon" later on? 

Alan Stewart 

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Re: Captain Britain - Knights of Pendragon?

Posted by Jeph! on October 17, 2000 at 12:53:31: 

Yup. Soon as I get ahold of all the issues. I'm finding it better to archive the issues themselves, and all characters within, rather than focus on a character-by-character basis, as I had been planning to do.
 
Stae toond... 

-Jeph! 

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Re: Captain Britain - Knights of Pendragon?

Posted by Alan Stewart on October 25, 2000 at 21:05:53: 

Great to hear that. I have complete sets of both runs, so let me know if you get stuck and need help with the archiving.

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Re: Captain Britain - Knights of Pendragon?

Posted by Jeph! on October 26, 2000 at 11:47:34: 
 
Now THAT ... could be useful. 

-Jeph! 

	Reply
Re: Captain Britain - flashbacks and Final chronology

Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 04, 2000 at 10:17:09: 

: Now, this is annoyingly long notation even for me. Going with this sort of chronology would lead to an MCP entry of CB1-FB/MTU65-FB/CB1-FB/MTU65-FB/CB1-FB/MTU65-FB/CB1-FB/MTU65-FB/CB1-FB/MTU65-FB/CB1-FB/CB2-FB/MTU65-FB/CB2-FB, and nobody wants that. Blech. This sort of attention to detail may do for Spider-Man's origin, but even I will admit that Captain Britain is no Spider-Man. Therefore I propose that the MCP entry combining the two versions of CB's origin be streamlined to: 
: CB 1-FB
: M/TU 65-FB
: CB 1-FB
: CB 2-FB
: M/TU 65-FB
: CB 2-FB 
: Nice and simple. It tells you that the flashbacks in CB #s 1 and 2 comprise the origin itself, while the M/TU flashback takes place in and around them. 

I think this is the part where we get to use the seldom used ~ from the key: 
CB 1-FB ~ M/TU 65-FB
CB 2-FB ~ M/TU 65-FB 
Although I'd like Russ to say whether it's appropriate in this case or not.

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Re: Captain Britain - flashbacks and Final chronology

Posted by Russ Chappell on October 04, 2000 at 19:59:27: 

Since you asked, I'll take the opportunity to expound a little on the squiggle. ~ is seldom used because Marvel seldom tells stories which require its use. ~ isn't used to save space when a character's chronology hops back and forth many times between two books. Nor is it used to signify retellings of previously told events, which is why you won't (or shouldn't--if you do, let me know) find any flashbacks using a ~. 

Concurrent appearances are when two stories (almost always published at the same time) show the exact same events, characters and dialog. The dozen or so titles that showed the heroes returning from the first Secret Wars is the most prevalent example. 

So based on what I've understood so far, this doesn't qualify. If two stories both told the same flashback at the same time, then maybe you'd see the ~. But as I understand it, these two flashback show different events that interweave, and in any case, I don't think they were published at the same time. 

As an aside, if they showed the same events, we would, of course, normally list the book that was published first and ignore any retellings. But in all honesty, if you were to tell me that CB 1 and M/TU 65 showed the same events and CB 1 was published first, I'd probably let my American bias show through and list it as M/TU 65. Not because I'm American (scholarly work, remember), but because Marvel is.

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Re: Captain Britain - flashbacks and Final chronology

Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 11, 2000 at 11:23:53: 

Well, from Jeph's original post, it sounds like the flashback in M/TU 65 does show the same events as CB 1, but it has more detail than the original telling. But I'm pretty sure they weren't published at the same time, too. Still, I get the point about when the ~ should be used. Thanks for clarifying it some more. 

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Re: Captain Britain - flashbacks and Final chronology

Posted by Lord Zorn on October 04, 2000 at 01:33:33: 

Could you please clarify why you list CB as having appeared in COC #'s 1-3 *immediately after* H2 250,
when the MCP clearly shows the Contest as having occurred after H2 279 relative to the Hulk's own chronology??? 
Thanks so much, and keep up the otherwise flawless work, 

Lord Zorn 

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Re: Captain Britain - flashbacks and Final chronology

Posted by Jeph York, pissed that someone found a mistake ;) on October 04, 2000 at 11:51:35: 

Mister York's my dad. Call me Jeph. ;) 

: Could you please clarify why you list CB as having appeared in COC #'s 1-3 *immediately after* H2 250,
: when the MCP clearly shows the Contest as having occurred after H2 279 relative to the Hulk's own chronology??? 

Honestly? Because I didn't do my research. I stacked the books I archived in order of publication date -- CoC was published in June-August of 1982; Hulk 279 in January of 1983 -- and I hadn't thought to check that the CoC miniseries might have been chronologically placed so far upstream from when it was published. But apparently, it was. ::sheepish grin:: And as pretty much every major marvel hero cameoed in Hulk 279 and CoC both, I can't fight the evidence. 

I'm going to be away from my computer for a bit (horrors!), but I'll do a little more research and get back to you. Ordinarily I'd move H2 279 back to right before CoC in CB's chronology, as the CoC series really can't be moved forward, but that places Hulk #250 and 279 right near each other, with no other appearances in between. Maybe Hulk #250 can be moved back, fitting in somewhere in the Black Knight's quest in the Hulk Comic stories, but I researched that and there's only small gaps between HC #11 and 20. Maybe the Captain flew home to get his mask -- he didn't have it in HC #1-11, but there it was in issue #12. We'll see. 

Thanks for pointing out my error -- much appreciated. Next time I'll do a bit more research when discussing already-chronologized books. 

-Jeph! 

			Reply
Waaait a minute

Posted by Jeph again on October 04, 2000 at 12:10:02: 

Okay -- as my previous reply just said, I didn't do my research, and didn't realize that the Contest of Champions series was archived in with issues six to ten months after it was published. 

But now, after having *done* a bit of research, I'm curious as to WHY the series was archived so late after all. Looking at only the two issues in question, H2 279 and COC 1, I already see a mistake in the way the issues are archived. 

In Hulk 279, the Hulk has recently regained the brain of Bruce Banner. Yet in COC 1, he's talking like the dumb Hulk -- evidence that the series takes place *before* the Hulk regained his mind -- was it 276?, or possibly after he lost it again -- but surely, he didn't lose his mind in #280 (where you've archived it), did he? 

This is me talking partially out of my ass, because the only Hulk issues I have around that time are 277-279, but I would appreciate some small reasoning for why the CoC series was archived where it was. 

-Jeph!, tempting the wrath of the MCP 

				Reply
Chipping away at COC

Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 11, 2000 at 11:14:21: 
 
Likewise, in ROM, Rom had just wrapped up a story, alongside Starshine II, in Russia. By his chronology, he was then whisked away for COC, and next turned up in New York City (M/TIO 99), sans Starshine! Then, he's back with Starshine II flying across the Pacific (IIRC), back to North America?!?! 

I think I've mentioned this to Russ before, but have never really challenged his placement before because he did all the research and who was I to question him. Now that he's put me on the board, though, I feel empowered. (Which means this is about the time Russ should swat me down.) 

A few months ago I purchased the comics such that I have the whole run of H2 from 275 to 300 (IIRC). I'll have to double-check, but I'm pretty sure Banner was in control (99.7% of the time) from 275 up until right after the Secret Wars. Note that I'm missing some of the other comics in Hulk's chronology during that time. (DEF, M/TIO, and H@ 12, in particular.) 

: -Jeph!, tempting the wrath of the MCP 
I wouldn't say the wrath of the MCP, just the wrath of Russ. 8) 

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Re: Chipping away at COC

Posted by Russ Chappell on October 12, 2000 at 19:37:22: 
 
Moi? 

The placement for Contest of Champions (at least that it follows Hulk 279, rather than preceding it, comes from the most recent edition of the Marvel Index. 

In The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, Volume 2, #3, cover dated June, 1994, the listing for UX@ 6 says, in part: 

Feature Characters: Prof. X (behind the scenes), Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, Sprite II (Prof. X next in New Mutants #4, then all seven next in Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #278, then Wolverine and Colossus in Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #279, then all in Marvel Super-Hero Contest of Champions #1-3 (all behind the scenes in #2; all but Wolverine and Storm behind the scenes in #3), then all in Marvel Two-In-One Annual #7, then all but Prof. X in Marvel Two-In-One #96, then all in Special Edition X-Men #1) 

This placement of COC relative to Hulk 279 may have been a mistake, but when Marvel was given the opportunity to correct it, in the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers Volume 2, issue #4, cover dated January 1995, here's what they say under Avengers #226: 

Featured Characters: The Wasp (next in Incredible Hulk volume 2 #277), Hawkeye, She-Hulk (following the above, all three next in Incredible Hulk volume 2 #278-279, then in Marvel Super-Hero Contest of Champions #1-3 (Wasp and Hawkeye behind the scenes in issues #2-3), then in Marvel Two-In-One Annual #7, then in Marvel-Two-In-One #96, then....) 

My point is that Murray Ward and company, representing Marvel, seemed to be pretty confident that Hulk #277-279 occurred before Contest of Champions. At one time, Timothy Stroup, who served as a consultant on the Indices of the period, was a pretty frequent visitor to the MCP, but I haven't heard from him in a while. Perhaps he could shed some insight on it. 

Granted, the Index doesn't claim that Contest of Champions immediately follows Hulk #279...I just don't have many stories to place in between the two. 

But it's not really me saying it. Marvel says it, and they've said it consistently.

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Re: Chipping away at COC

Posted by Jeph! on October 11, 2000 at 19:04:35: 

In Reply to: Chipping away at COC posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 11, 2000 at 11:14:21: 

After more research, it appears that the Hulk had the mind of Bruce Banner from issues #272 to 300. However, prior to 272, he was off on an adventure with Rocket Raccoon. Anyone know the issue numbers of THAT arc? 

: Likewise, in ROM, Rom had just wrapped up a story, alongside Starshine II, in Russia. By his chronology, he was then whisked away for COC, and next turned up in New York City (M/TIO 99), sans Starshine! Then, he's back with Starshine II flying across the Pacific (IIRC), back to North America?!?! 

That sounds more like a problem with the placing of M/TIO 99 to me ... am I to assume that the two issues where he was in Russia are concurrent ROM issues? 

Ah, the mess that is the Marvel Universe... 

-Jeph! 

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Re: Chipping away at COC

Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 12, 2000 at 09:31:53: 

In Reply to: Re: Chipping away at COC posted by Jeph! on October 11, 2000 at 19:04:35: 
: After more research, it appears that the Hulk had the mind of Bruce Banner from issues #272 to 300. However, prior to 272, he was off on an adventure with Rocket Raccoon. Anyone know the issue numbers of THAT arc? 

He was only with Rocket Raccoon for a single issue (#271). But before that issue, he was apparently somewhere else off of Earth. Unfortunately, I have no issues prior to #271 (until something like #179). 

: That sounds more like a problem with the placing of M/TIO 99 to me ... am I to assume that the two issues where he was in Russia are concurrent ROM issues?
 
Okay, I'll give you that, but the placement of M/TIO 99 is dictated a lot by the placement of COC in other character's chronologies and their meetings with Rom around that time. (Rom encountered a lot of other heroes from ROM 34-46.) I might also mention that the Thing has 10 issues of adventures (mostly M/TIO) between COC and M/TIO 99, while Rom goes directly from COC to M/TIO 99! 

And to answer your concurrency question, not only are those two issues concurrent, but all the issues from 40 to 46 are. Furthermore, portions of 41 and 42 take place in another dimension and in 44 Quasimodo occupies Rom's armor. (And Quasimodo shouldn't be snatched for the COC.) We can blame it all on the dumb little cameo of Rom the artist insisted on doing in COC.

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The Hulk and COC: trying to fit one last time

Posted by Gary M. Miller on October 14, 2000 at 23:23:47: 
 
The Hulk was off-Earth beginning in H2 269. Anytime before that, I figure, his adventures can pretty much take place anytime before. I don't know if this helps, but it's the best I can do. 

Additionally, although the Hulk had Banner's brain as of #272-300, he didn't *really* assert 100% control, it's been shown, till around #276. Between #272-275, the savage Hulk ("Hulk smash!") came out a few times when there were lapses in Banner's thought--e.g. he got *too* angry, etc. I never saw this happen after #275, though (or was it #274? Doesn't matter.) 

I'll even offer up another reason why the Hulk behaved savagely in COC. To my knowledge, Banner-as-Hulk never had to endure the alien transportation methods the Grandmaster et al. had to use to get him and the other Marvel heroes, so why couldn't the Hulk's reduced intelligence be a bizarre side-effect of some cosmic turbulence? Stranger things have certainly happened. Banner could have been disoriented enough to have let his guard down over the savage personality. 

What do you think, sirs? 

-Gary 


NEW THREAD
Valid timelines

Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 04, 2000 at 16:49:25: 

As far as I can tell, for a book, reality, or line of titles to be worthy of consideration for inclusion in the Project, they have to have a demonstrable tie with the Mainstream, establishing them as canon. 

One way to do so is through divergence points. The Killraven/Dargo/Guardiansverse diverged in M/TIO 69. Earth/Universe X is firmly *not* canon, not accounting for certain characters' apearances in Avengers Forever. 

Are there definite divergence points for: 2020 (Arno Stark, et al), 2099 (Spidey/Ravage, etc), and MC2? 

For MC2, I'd argue that the time-travel issues (Spider-Girl meets her father while he was in high school, J2 went back to the Middle Ages, I think, etc.) establish the timeline as viable, albeit not showing a specific divergence point. 

- StAkAr

	Reply
Re: Valid timelines

Posted by Russ Chappell on October 04, 2000 at 19:30:10: 
 
Divergence points are not the key. If divergence points are a way to show the stories are canon as part of the Marvel Universe, then we have to go back and pick up just about all of the "What If...?" characters. Ask yourself this question: Do firmly-rooted characters from these divergent timelines appear in firmly-rooted Marvel Universe stories *after* the divergence? Or do firmly-rooted Marvel Universe characters appear (usually through some form of time travel) in the divergent timeline stories? For example, wasn't there an instance of Doom 2099 (the character) appearing in an issue of FF? Or was it that our Mr. Fantastic appeared in an issue of Doom 2099? Or am I misremembering? 

> For MC2, I'd argue that the time-travel issues (Spider-Girl meets her father while he was in high school, J2 went back to the Middle Ages, I think, etc.) establish the timeline as viable, albeit not showing a specific divergence point. 

On the other hand, I'd argue that this showed only that Spider-Girl's father attended high school, or that there was a Middle Ages in the MC2 universe. It does nothing to show that it's *our* Peter Parker. This is getting philosophical, but even if May's father has had all the experiences that we know our Peter has had, that doesn't show that they are "dimensionally" the same person, that is to say, that it's the mainstream Marvel Universe Peter.

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Spaceknights validity

Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 11, 2000 at 10:06:07: 
 
If this is the line of reasoning, you may want to reconsider having me add all the characters from the SPACEKNIGHTS (SK) limited series to the MCP when that series concludes. Despite what Batista believes, the only way this story could be taking place "now" in the Marvel Universe is if time somehow goes faster on Galador than most of the rest of the MU. Rom's younger son is roughly 18, I think. (I definitely wouldn't put him younger than 15, at any rate.) I don't think you can find a single character in the MU that's naturally aged 15 years since ROM #75. 

And while Rom and Brandy do appear and apparently are identical in their experiences with the mainstream characters, they did not get there through time travel, but just the natural passage of time. This really only leaves the SK series as taking place in a potential future. I think we all know how often a potential future actually comes to pass in the MU. 8) 


NEW THREAD
Spider-Clones 2, 3 & Spidercide

Posted by Gary M. Miller on October 04, 2000 at 20:05:24: 

Russ & co., 

I guess I seem to be among the minority in those who picked up the entire clone saga in the Spider-Man titles. So, I guess it falls to me to close some gaps and make some changes in continuity entries along this line. Here, pending verification, is the first change to the entries pertaining to clones: 

Your entries for Spider-Clone II, Spider-Clone III, and Spidercide should all be combined. In SPIDER-MAN: THE JACKAL FILES (which you don't have listed anywhere, so I'll just reference it furthermore as SM:TJF 1) the Jackal recounted that he had indeed saved Spider-Clone II (first appearance: PPTSS 222, but could also arguably be behind the scenes in the entire "Smoke & Mirrors" story arc). It was this Spider-Clone, also referred to in PPTSS 224 as "Freakface" who became Spidercide. If this isn't enough for you, Spidercide references in MC:A that Scarlet Spider should recognize him as "Freakface." Bridge the gap and, the chronology for Spider-Clone II/Spidercide should be as follows: 

SPIDERCIDE/SPIDER-MAN CLONE II 
ASM 399-BTS (in one of the clone caskets in the Jackal's lair)
S-M 56-BTS (ditto, on the last page)
PPTSS 222
WOSM 123
ASM 400
S-M 57
PPTSS 223
WOSM 124
ASM 401
S-M 58
PPTSS 224
PPTSS 225 (as the Peter Parker on the last page)
PPTSS 226
SM:TJF 1 (the body on the table; becomes Spidercide here)
NW 61
MC:A
ASM 404
S-M 61
PPTSS 227
MC:O 

It's also probable that Spidercide appears behind-the-scenes in WOSM 127 in between MC:A and ASM 404, but I don't have that issue handy, so I can't tell for sure. 

Maybe Guardian IV should be listed as: GUARDIAN IV / SPIDER-MAN CLONE II, and "Jack" would be aliased as "Spider-Man Clone III". This, then, would make Spidercide actually Spider-Man Clone IV. (And if you want to add Kaine, well, then, shove that numbering out the window because if you assign numbers by date of first appearance, he'd come between Ben (ASM 149) and Guardian (WOSM 122). 

If anyone needs me to, I can analyze the rest by chunks, just ask and give me sufficient time to get the books handy (I'm at campus, 95% of my books are at home, where I go every few weekends...I'm going home this Friday so if you need your gaps filled and entries corrected, then let me know before then). 

-Gary M. Miller 

	Reply
Re: Spider-Clones 2, 3 & Spidercide

Posted by Russ Chappell on October 04, 2000 at 21:02:15: 
 
Gary, 

Thanks for the contribution, but can I ask you to redo it just a tad? 

When adding appearances in books that we don't already have listed, (such as The Jackal Files), it's appropriate to analyze the book. In other words, give us a list of all the characters who appear in the book (with before and after appearances, if at all possible). If we were to add this book only to one character's chronology, we would mistakenly believe that the book has been added to the MCP. 

We're eager to see your contributions, because you're the first person to step to the plate with Spider-Man books.

		Reply
Aunt May Actress

Posted by Jesse Lee Herndon on October 05, 2000 at 00:08:11: 

On a related Clone Saga note, the chronology of Aunt May II, or the actress who literally died for an Osborn Oscar. The MCP has her listed as Aunt May for every story May appeared in for the Clone Saga. This would work in the grand scheme, if not for the fact that May has considerable interaction with people up until her coma that makes the "actress switch" even more ludicrous any sooner than Amazing #400. Her, until then never mentioned and never really elaborated upon later, phone conversations with Ben Reilly seem to imply that May was May until at least the story where she has her heart attack. Personally, i'm more inclined to believe the "switch" would work better in Amazing #400, when "May" suddenly awakens from her coma just to die off a little while later. Any lack of details in memory or strange behavior during that short time could be attributed to the recent stroke. Plus, if the real May was still in a coma, it'd explain how Osborn kept her captive for a year or so without any problems at all. Lord knows the Spidey books never bothered to explain that portion of the retcon in any manner as it was...

		Reply
The Jackal Files #1

Posted by Gary M. Miller on October 08, 2000 at 15:47:39: 
 
Here it is: 

SPIDER-MAN: THE JACKAL FILES #1 
Prominent characters: The Jackal, Spidercide. 
Plot: The Jackal experiments with Spidercide in his lab, programming him with files of his quarries in preparation for the storyline "Maximum Clonage." 
The Jackal appears here between PPTSS 226 and MC:A. 
Spidercide appears here between PPTSS 226 and NW 61. 

That's it! 

Next I'll be looking over other continuities--probably Jackal, Scarlet Spider, Kaine, et al... Seward Trainer too, which'll be tough. May even have to renovate Green Goblin I. 

-Gary 

NEW THREAD
Midnight

Posted by The Beetle on October 05, 2000 at 08:28:00:
 
Recently bought alot of MOKF issues, and just finished reading #41, which is a fill-in story, where Shang-Chi thinks back four years, where Midnight was accused of stealing some wine from Fu Manchu 

So the MCP appearances of Midnight should be like this 
> SM/E 16-FB
> IM@ 4/2
> SM/E 16-FB
MOKF #41-FB
> SM/E 16
> A 131
> A 132
> GSA 3
> SM/E 16
> SS3 29
> SS3 30
> SS@ 4/3
> SS3 60

NEW THREAD
Spidey addition

Posted by Mario on October 07, 2000 at 23:38:18: 

you guys have a great site, but this gap really needs to be closed. i don't have practically any of the comics that you need that i can find a logical place for, but there are a few.

ASM'96, you already have listed as a flashback, but in the second story, its an "untold tale" with spidey in black. let me try to annalyze it for u

writer: Fabian Nicieza
characters: spidey, mary jane, j. jonah jameson, joe robertson, may parker, deadmaker, Jennifer deVille 
Basically, the story is, shortly after spidey returns from his honeymoon with mary jane, he meets new bugle reporter ken ellis. They go together to investigate a murder. During an interlude, Jennifer deVille (nickname: Cruella), and other agents of SHIELD storm a russian gun-smuggling factory. She asks about a russian killer named "Deadmaker," Later, after Ken writes the story, Peter stops a missile from reaching his and mary jane's apartment. The police search the parker home, and peter meets Cruella. She tells him that Gregori Anatolovich (DEADMAKER) wants revenge for parker's parents having exposed him as a double agent for hydra. Spidey and Deadmaker fight. Deadmaker is arrested.
This is Deadmaker and Cruella and Ken Ellis' first story.

**I place this story here for spidey (and the same for jameson and robertson and may parker and mary jane): 
PPTSS@7
ASM@21
ASM'96/2
WOSM 31 

The next story is Spiderman: the Parker Years #1 (a oneshot) Nov 1995
This story shows Peter packing up his stuff, preparing for him and mary jane to move away (peter gave up spiderman for ben riely). The only two characters are mary jane and peter, and they just look back on spidey's career, with no new flashbacks or anything

This story occurs after 
PPTSS 229
S:PY 1

**then, 3 weeks after moving to portland, peter shows up in the 3 part Spiderman: the Final Adventure, but i only have #1.
characters: Peter Parker, Mary Jane, Dr. Eric Schwinner and Dr. Monica Staphos (first appearances for both), Ken Ellis, Phil Urich, Ben Urich, Joe Robertson 
- Peter is working as a scientist, when he discovers that a fellow worker, dr staphos had a patient that died. Peter starts researching one of the patients that is staying in the lab. Staphos goes to give the patient his shots one night, the monster breaks out, Staphos calls Peter, and peter becomes spiderman again and rushes to the hospital. An interlude at the Bugle merely has the people talking about peter being gone. 

I don't have the daily bugle miniseries, so i can't account for that story, but as far as i can tell, this story takes place:
PPTSS 229
S:PY 1
S:FA 1 

Finally, Spiderman: the Lost Years #1-3, tracks Ben Reilly on his quest during the time he thought he was the clone.
characters: Spider-Clone, Kaine, Louise Kennedy, Jacob Raven, Vincent Tannen, Janine, Proffesor White, Matthew Raven, Jimmy "the Mouth", Helene Raven 
ok, well, Proffesor White is only in #2, Helene Raven only in #1
#1-3 are the the first appearances for Louise Kenedy,Jimmy the mouth, JAcob RAven, MAtthew Raven, and Vincent Tannen.
for Janine, there's a flashback of her killing her dad in #3, so for her, it goes
S:LY 3-FB
S:LY 1
S:LY 2
S:LY 3
for Ben, Spider-Clone, it fits here
S-M 62-FB
S:LY 1
S:LY 2
S:LY 3
WOSM 114

the reason is, S-M 62 takes place "4 years ago" and Lost Years takes place 3 yrs after ben started the journey, and since he was only on the road 5 yrs according to other spidey books, it must take place after S-M 62. the same goes for Kaine, whom the stories fit here for him:
S-M 61-FB
S:LY 1,2,3
WOSM 118 

the basic plot of the book: Ben stops in Salt Lake City on his travels. He becomes a professor at a local college, meets Janine. they start going out. Jacob Raven and partner Louise Kennedy are trying to nail the Tanner gang, run by tanner, who's behind bars at the time. Kaine meets Louise, they fall in love. Tanner has the Raven home bombed. Helene is killed. Matthew is kidnapped. Ben tries to save the boy, but is attacked by Louise, who's really working for Tannen. Kaine breaks into the fight, and attacks Ben. the kidnappers get away and Ben manages to crawl his way to Janine's home, where she tells him about shooting her father when she was young. Louise tells Raven that Ben was the one that kidnapped his son. they go after Ben, but when they reach him, Kaine jumps in, attacks Ben, then kills Louise, leaving Raven to believe that Ben did it. RAven gets his boy back and Ben leaves Salt Lake with Janine 

**i have bunches of more spidey one shots and scarlet spider junk, but i still gotta sort through it. hope this helps you for now.

NEW THREAD
Iron Man: Bad Blood #3

Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 08, 2000 at 16:19:07: 

Mostly a straightforward one, this, but there's a flashback at the beginning which somebody with more Iron Man knowledge will need to place. 

So far as the regular contintuity is concerned, the cast is:- 
Iron Man I
Jim Rhodes 
Happy Hogan
Jocasta
Justin Hammer
Phillip (Hammer's aide from the previous two issues) 
There's also an unnamed thief who tries to steal a jupiter landing vehicle, and various staff members at the Seattle Aerospace Center. 

The opening flashback is more of a problem. It depicts Blacklash attacking Stark International, and Iron Man breaking off from the fight to rescue a group of Stark International staff trapped in a hangar (including Jim Rhodes and a man named as Farley). 

The characters in the flashback are Iron Man, Blacklash, and Jim Rhodes. For what it's worth, Iron Man is in the same old suit of armour that he's currently wearing in the regular book and Avengers; and the Stark International staff are all wearing what look to be white jumpsuits with "Stark" written on the back. 

	Reply
Re: Iron Man: Bad Blood #3

Posted by Guffawing Crow on October 23, 2000 at 09:31:48: 

The flashback occurs DURING the events of IM #147. 
Right at the end of #146, IM realizes that Stark International has caught on fire. At the beginning of #147, IM disengages fighting Blacklash to go to various buildings to save his staff. 
Thus, the flashback occurs DURING the events of IM #147. 

NEW THREAD
Avataars: Covenant of the Shield #3

Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 08, 2000 at 16:36:35: 

This is the other book I can help with this week - I didn't buy Lost Generation #4 either. 

Key point to make, right off the bat, is that it looks very much like this series is not in regular continuity (praise the lord). Three pages from the end, we finally establish that the framing sequence (with the father narrating the history of Eurth to his son) is taking place 30 years after the main story. 

The main story also ends up with a time travel sequence in which Captain Avalon and Dreadlord travel back to the Worldwar (a World War II analogue). No clear timeframe is given for that, but Dreadlord refers to his "years of humiliation" since his side lost the Worldwar. 

That means that Eurth has at least thirty-two years of history between the creation of the planet in issue #1, and the narrative framing sequence in issues #1-3. Since the kid in issue #1 who was one of the muses in creating Eurth was aware of the modern superheroes, the only scene that can possibly be in continuity is the creation of Eurth in issue #1. The rest must be an alternate timeline, and it's probably easier just to view the entire miniseries as out of continuity. 

However, if you're going to include it in the MCP, here's the chronologies. 
Starting with the characters who appear in the flashback that forms the core story: 
Blackthorn
Captain Avalon
Idol (becomes Phantazm; real name revealed as Symon)
Witchfire
Ironheart
Nighthowl
Bloodraven
Dreadlord (real name revealed as Zymo)
Black Blade
S'Tvaan (Captain Avalon's son, as named in this issue)
(All of the above from the main flashback in issue #2) 
Darkwater
Scarabus
Iron Cross
Titan
Slag
Ill Wind
Green Death
Swashbuckler
Scythe
Skreech
Deathlight
(All throwaway villains making their only appearance in this flashback) 

Another flashback briefly shows the Worldwar, Eurth's equivalent of WWII. The only individual characters appearing are Captain Avalon (between his origin flashback and the main flashback in issue #1) and Dreadlord (obviously preceding his behind the scenes appearance in the main flashback in issue #1) 

The framing sequence opens up at the end into a brief "What's going on on Eurth right now" routine, and then ends with the cosmic powers agreeing on what a swell place Eurth is. The characters appearing are:- 
Prester John (revealed as the father/narrator in the preceding two issues) and the boy he was talking to.
S'Tvaan
Greenskyn Smashtroll (from the main flashback in issue #1)
The Ancient One and Regent Nicholas (their version of Nick Fury - two throwaways who appear briefly)
The Shaper of Worlds, Eternity, Infinity, the Living Tribunal and the Stranger (all from issue #1). 

As I said at the beginning, though, this appears to be an out of continuity miniseries.


NEW THREAD
Lost Generation gaps!

Posted by Prime Eternal on October 10, 2000 at 20:41:30: 

Marvel: The Lost Generation#11 
Naturally, this comic is set just before #12 of the series. 

Cast: Walkabout, Eternal Brain (Professor William Carmody; revealed as being separate entity from Walkabout, and hence, appeared in #12. first appeared in Red Raven Comics#1, which is set before his appearance in Lost Generation#9), Nocturne, Black Fox (real name: Robert W. Paine), Gadfly (real name: Ruth MacRae), Firefall (name revealed- first appeared in #12), Pixie, Mr. Justice (real name- Timothy; name revealed- first appeared in #12), Rapunzel (1st app), Effigy, Dr. Mime (1st app), Zankor (a Skrull; also goes by alias of "Jay Stevenson"), Yeti. 
Ben Grimm and Reed Richards also appear. Sean Kleefield could tell you where this fits exactly in their chronology. 

There are two flashbacks in this issue. The first is a recording which depicts Emperor Dorrek assigning Zankor to Earth. 

The second is set "hours earlier" from the main story, and features Zankor in his "Jay Stevenson" guise. 

Marvel: The Lost Generation#10 
Set before #11. 

Cast: Nick Fury, Walkabout, Pixie, Oxbow, Effigy (alias of Jake Scott first revealed), Eternal Brain, Warlord Kro (following flashback to Vietnam in Eternals: The Herod Factor), Rapunzel, Morph (1st app), Cassandra Locke (following her appearance in #12), Yeti, Gadfly, Captain Hip (1st app; real name: Fred MacRae), Sunshine (1st app; real name: Autumn MacRae). 

Marvel: The Lost Generation#4 
Set before #5. 

Opens with a flashback sequence set in 1947. It features the chronologically earliest (so far) appearance of Effigy, as Velmax (his real name) and the first appearance of Zuhn, his commanding officer. Also 1st appearance of Jake Scott, who dies, and has his alias assumed by Effigy. 

The main story is set on November 21, 1963, from 10:15 am to November 22, 1963, 7:50 am. How's that for accuracy? :-) 

Appearing here are Nightingale, Liberty Girl (1st app; real name "Bev"), Kid Justice (Mr. Justice's earlier super-hero name), the Yankee Clipper (1st app), Black Fox, Oxbow, Pixie, Effigy, Lee Harvey Oswald, Chimera (really Zuhn, following the flashback; also uses alias of "Mr. Winget"), Howler (real name: Luke Garrow), and Cassandra Locke (appears next in #7). 

I'll caution you right now- this data is bound to change once the last three issues are released. For one thing, we'll finally be able to figure out *exactly* what order Dr. Locke appears in during the series. 

Oh, and there's another flashback which follows the opening one in 1947. It depicts how Effigy hid Zuhn's body, and assumed Jake Scott's identity, then, over the years, gained political power. 

Hope this is of help... 

Michael Hoskin 

	Reply
Re: Lost Generation gaps!

Posted by SKleefeld on October 12, 2000 at 18:43:39:
 
In Reply to: Lost Generation gaps! posted by Prime Eternal on October 10, 2000 at 20:41:30: 

: Marvel: The Lost Generation#11 

: Ben Grimm and Reed Richards also appear. Sean Kleefield could tell you where this fits exactly in their chronology. 

I would have to place it near the end of their careers at ESU. Ben is clearly treated as the star football player (he was good, but it would still take at least a couple of years to become "Mr. Football Hero") and Reed is also suggested to have a fair amount of fame as well. (Would Effigy have referred to any doctoral student by name without that person being there? Probably not, he would probably have said, "I've already deduced a little about his mission from what he told that student.") 

Consequently, I would have to put this after flashback in Thing #2, which was already fairly late in their respective ESU careers. 

Sean 

	Reply
Same name character numbering

Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 11, 2000 at 10:50:34: 

In Reply to: Lost Generation gaps! posted by Prime Eternal on October 10, 2000 at 20:41:30: 

: Marvel: The Lost Generation #11 
: Cast: [...] Firefall (name revealed- first appeared in #12) [....] 

Russ, what's the rule for numbering characters with the same name? Real chronological appearance (cover date) or Marvel chronological appearance? 

In this case, who came first: this Firefall or the Archie Stryker one in ROM #3? The "original" Firefall, Karas, predates both. By 200 years Marvel time or 20 years real time. Archie Stryker appeared as Firefall first our time (1980), but the Lost Generation Firefall appeared before him in Marvel time (sometime before FF #1, which the ROM series clearly comes some years after). 

Numbering by Marvel time could get nasty, but numbering by real time could get confusing, too. ("Whaddya mean Power Baby II was born 40 years before Power Baby I?") 

		Reply
Re: Same name character numbering

Posted by Russ Chappell on October 11, 2000 at 22:13:51: 

The most recent Marvel Indices (X-Men and Avengers) followed the policy of numbering based on Marvel chronological appearances (although I can't think of the specific examples off the top of my head), so I attempt to follow that practice when I know the answer. The Human Torch and Angel are exceptions, right now, but if enough people feel they should fall in line with everyone else, we'll change it. 

To answer your specific question, I think the original (Rom) Firefall would be (assumed) I. Lost Generation would be II, and Archie would be III.


NEW THREAD
Rampaging Hulk & Hulk Magazine

Posted by OnionMan on October 11, 2000 at 15:21:40:
 
Hi! 

I am wondering why only #10 of Rampaging Hulk/Hulk Magazine (1977-1981) is in the chronology... 

Is it because the rest of the issues were only reprints... or maybe the stories are considered non-canonical? If so... why? 

Perhaps the stories weere retcons or something else that later was reversed... like it never happened... 
I haven't read any of the issues in question... so I am curious what this run was about? 

Well anyway... I really like this project... My compliments to the chef.. :-) 

/OnionMan - Sweden 

	Reply
Re: Rampaging Hulk & Hulk Magazine

Posted by Prime Eternal on October 11, 2000 at 20:22:07: 

It was revealed in the pages of the Incredible Hulk that the events of the Hulk magazine were just a bunch of movies created by the Krylorian Bereet. None of the Hulk stories are canonical, though the back-up Bloodstone, Moon Knight & Dominic Fortune stories are. 

That reminds me...Hulk Magazine#15 had a cross-over between that issues Hulk & Moon Knight stories, so that Hulk appearance must be canon...is this issue included in the Hulk's chronology? 

Michael Hoskin 

		Reply
Re: Rampaging Hulk & Hulk Magazine

Posted by Gary M. Miller on October 11, 2000 at 21:03:03: 
 
Only RAMPAGING HULK #1-9 took place out of continuity. 

The Hulk/Moon Knight crossover, and all the stories from THE HULK! #10-27 should take place in real Marvel continuity but aren't chronologized. Why? Because in the book that indexed the Hulk magazine, it only included placements up through HULK! #10. I'd certainly try tackling these issues and putting them in continuity in the Hulk's entry, since I have them all, but I don't get access to the books all that often (they're at home, I'm at campus). Maybe Thanksgiving I can get to heavily analyzing the continuity. As a rough note, most of those stories take place in between INCREDIBLE HULK #227 and 269. 

-Gary

		Reply
Re: Rampaging Hulk & Hulk Magazine

Posted by Jeph, confused on October 12, 2000 at 12:00:35: 
 
Good God. And I wasted so much money on that one with the X-Men ... in what Hulk issue was this revealed? 
I'm so pissed. 

-Jeph! 


NEW THREAD
CB, Rom, Hulk, and Contest of Champions

Posted by Jeph! on October 11, 2000 at 18:58:52: 

This post is following up events in my Captain Britain threads earlier, but since it has strayed so far from topic, and since so much time has passed, I figured it best to start a new thread so it too can become aged and ignored. :) 

Anyway -- questions have been raised, by Lee Seitz and myself, about the validity of the chronology of the Contest of Champions series. There are minor problems with Rom, as noted by Lee, and there is a big flaw with the Hulk -- namely, that he's dumb as a bag of bricks. 

I did a bit more research. In Hulk #272, Bruce Banner's brain reasserts control over the Hulk. Although he loses control at times when he gets extremely ANGRY, generally when calm he is Banner. He is pardoned by the federal government in issue #279, in a big public ceremony where the heroes of earth welcome and cheer him. 

Then, in Contest of Champions #1, which is archived after Hulk #280 on the MCP, Hulk is back to "Hulk smash Doc Samson!" He's dumb even when calm, too; when the Human Torch flies by he remarks "huh! Suddenly Hulk feel hot!" And NOBODY remarks on this, no hero thinks it's odd. 

In general, the Contest of Champions series is archived with books published six to eight months after it: it came out the same moth as Hulk #272 and Captain America #270, but is archived with issues #279 of both series. And since this is a public forum, perhaps the time has come to ask WHY. 

Could somebody on the MCP staff, someone who has more of the books, post a reply to this? Are the chronologies of all our heroes so tight that they couldn't have been snatched away from wherever they were (remember, the series puts the earth in suspended animation, and takes place "between panels") at any point six months *before*? 

On a side note, assuming that this is indeed the "correct" place for the MCP, then Lord Zorn's challenge to my CB chronology is still active. I have given the matter some thought. In The Daredevils #9 (UK; Sept 1983), Sir James Jaspers references the Hulk's public pardon as "last month". I had to consider: when moving CB's H2 279 appearance to back before his COC one (which, in turn, was placed before CB's trip to the alternate earth), could all of CB's otherworldly adventures -- MSH MAG #377 to The Daredevils #9, travelling from world to world, dying and returning home, testifying before the onmiversal court and fighting the Special Executive -- have taken place in a mere month? 

The answer I came up with was Yes. Therefore, instead of moving Contest of Champions forward, I am moving H2 279 back. CB's new chronology now looks, in part, like this: 

...
HC 57 thru 60 (2)
H2 250
*H2 279
COC 1
COC 2
COC 3
M/SH MAG 377
M/SH MAG 385
M/SH MAG 377 thru 384
M/SH MAG 386
M/SH MAG 387
M/SH MAG 388
*DDS 1 thru 11
ROM 65
... 

Starred lines indicate a change; for the full chronology please see my earlier post. 

Any input on how the CoC series fits into other characters' chronologies, well or poorly, or if there are any references to it in the regular books that could help nail it down, would be greatly appreciated. 

-Jeph! 

	Reply
Re: CB, Rom, Hulk, and Contest of Champions

Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 12, 2000 at 09:59:24: 

Here are some of the clues that can be used to place COC in contiunity. Some of them may not be particularly helpful, but it's hard for me to judge because most of my Marvel comics come from after the COC took place. 
1. The Avengers seems to consist of Captain America, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Wasp, and Wonder Man.
2. The Beast is a active member of the Defenders.
3. The Avengers are working out at Avengers Mansion (with the Beast).
4. Crimson Dynamo is a member of the Soviet Super-Soldiers.
5. The Fantastic Four were attending a banquet in their honor at the Adventurers Club.
6. Alpha Flight is returning from patrolling Canada's northwest.
7. The X-Men are working out in the Danger Room.
8. The Defenders were not snatched as a group, so it didn't take place between panels of any Defenders issue.
9. Quasar still works at Project: Pegasus.
10. A stupid, green Hulk is fighting Doc Samson in the southwest U.S.
11. The Inhumans have come to Earth for a visit. Did they appear in any other comics about this time?
12. Jocasta is still functioning. I believe she was destroyed (and stayed that way for a a long time) in M/TIO 93.

Reply
Re: CB, Rom, Hulk, and Contest of Champions

Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 15, 2000 at 21:12:49: 

Jeph raises a valid point about the Hulk. He is dumb in COC and the Official Indexes to the Marvel Universe (which are not infallible) seem to ignore this. I'm inclined to break ranks with the Indexes and propose two things: 

1) Moving COC 1-3 back in chronology to just after UX 167. The X-Men are back on earth for COC 1 and I propose that COC occurs within 24 hours of their return.

2) Moving H2 269-278 forward to a spot occupying several days immediately following COC 3. 

While H2 269-277 is going on, the X-Men appear in UX@ 6, then Professor X in NM 4. The X-Men then appear in H2 278. 

Fortunately, the multi-issue Hulk story and COC were never proposed as occuring far apart in Marvel Time at all, and the adjustment would be fairly easy. (All of this should occur in early June.) Off-hand, I'd say this would involve only switching the order of H2 277-279 and COC 1-3 in the chronologies of every character who appeared in both storylines; in many cases, these appearance are back-to-back anyway. The exceptions I can think of are the Hulk and the X-Men (already mentioned), the Fantastic Four (who would now appear in UX 167 then COC 1-3 then H2 277-279), and Power Man and Iron Fist (who Russ has appearing in PMIF 83 between H2 279 and COC 1). 

Note: It may be possible for Hulk to be snatched for COC sometime between H2 269 and 272, but I don't have those issues and so can't recommend a logical point of disappearance. 

I'd be interested in Russ' and Lord Zorn's reactions to this proposal. 

Another note about COC: what the heck is Nighthawk doing there? He died long before in DEF 106! Answer: unless he was resurrected or snatched from a previous point in time, I'd say that the Nighthawk seen in COC was the Squadron Supreme's Nighthawk, not the Defenders'. 

Paul Bourcier
aka "Captain Chronology" of the Jarvis-Heads

		Reply
Re: CB, Rom, Hulk, and Contest of Champions

Posted by Russ Chappell on October 18, 2000 at 20:49:54: 

Welcome, Paul. 

I've been bouncing this snatching-out-of-time thing around in my head for a couple of weeks before you mentioned it, and there's a certain appeal to it. 

1) He's shown the capacity and the willingness to do this in the past, most notably when he brings Iron Man to team up with Thor, Goliath and Captain America in Avengers #70, even though Tony Stark is stuck in a hospital bed. 

2) It solves problems. It provides explanations for the appearances or behavior not only of Hulk, but Nighthawk--as you mention below--and Rom. In addition, we don't have to invalidate the Index entries. 

Any reasons why we can't do this? 

I haven't heard from Lord Zorn in a while. Are you out there, Zorn? 

			Reply
Re: CB, Rom, Hulk, and Contest of Champions

Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 20, 2000 at 21:01:58: 
 
I guess the question is: why on earth would the Grandmaster snatch Hulk from another point in time when a perfectly functioning Hulk was around at the time of COC? Remember that when he snatched Iron Man in A 70, Tony Stark was incapacitated and the Grandmaster wanted a healthy Shellhead. No reason to do this with Hulk in COC. Nighthawk, at least, was dead by COC. The questions that arise with Nighthawk are: if that's the mainstream Nighthawk (II), why isn't anyone shocked to see him? (Off-panel shock?) And why weren't other deceased heroes shown? I'd be inclined to say that the Indexes are in error rather than fabricate some illogical time-travel explanation. 

		Reply
Re: CB, Rom, Hulk, and Contest of Champions

Posted by Lord Zorn on October 27, 2000 at 03:39:39: 

In Reply to: Re: CB, Rom, Hulk, and Contest of Champions posted by Paul Bourcier on October 15, 2000 at 21:12:49: 

: Jeph raises a valid point about the Hulk. He is dumb in COC and the Official Indexes to the Marvel Universe (which are not infallible) seem to ignore this. I'm inclined to break ranks with the Indexes and propose two things: 

: 1) Moving COC 1-3 back in chronology to just after UX 167. The X-Men are back on earth for COC 1 and I propose that COC occurs within 24 hours of their return.

: 2) Moving H2 269-278 forward to a spot occupying several days immediately following COC 3. 

: While H2 269-277 is going on, the X-Men appear in UX@ 6, then Professor X in NM 4. The X-Men then appear in H2 278. 

Hi, Paul,Russ, and Jeph: 

I agree with you in large part, Paul. I do think COC is already listed in the MCP as having occurred after UX 167. I think the two main clues in the Hulk's canon which support your position are: 

The unobtrusive, yet important, appearence of the Arabian Knight in COC. The Knight first appears in cameo in H2 250(which is *missing* from the MCP, incidentally) as he is spotted by the Silver Surfer as the latter wanders the globe disconsolately.

The Knight appears next in H2 257 as a bit player in what might be called Hulk's "world tour", which lasts from H2 255-H2 261. It therefore strikes me as entirely logical(from a marketing standpoint, at any rate) for COC to occur sometime after H2 250, and most likely after H2 257 or H2 261, when the Arabian Knight(and the internationalist flavour of the "tour")would be fresh enough in the audience's minds to tie into the "Superhero Olympics" of the COC. 

The fact that the Hulk is first seen in COC in combat with Doc Samson in the American Southwest in a (presumably) *live* "feed" on Grandmaster's monitor screen. Since the consensus here now tilts against the "time snatch" theory, this means that COC might occur as early as H2 253(the last "official" encounter between the two gentlemen around this time)or as late as anytime between H2 264 and H 268,when(except for the Defenders interruptions) Hulk is back in the Desert Southwest. A comparison/search for similar scenes between H2 253 and the fight scene in COC 1 in this regard(my books are packed inconveniently away in boxes at the moment, so either Bruce, Russ or Paul should do this, please). Placing it after Questprobe 1 has a certain ironic and symmetrical appeal to me too ("big guns are always in demand even when they don't want to be", etc..).Hulk is off-earth from H2 269 to his return from the Keystone Quadrant with Banner's brain in control in H2 272, by the way. 

Lord Zorn, better late than never 

			Reply
Re: CB, Rom, Hulk, and Contest of Champions

Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 03, 2000 at 20:56:44: 

Thanks for chiming in, Lord Zorn. 

Placing COC too far back (e.g. as early as H2 253) wreaks havoc with the chronologies of other characters. I propose the sequence of Hulk's appearances as: 
H2 266-268
M/FAN 7
COC 1-3
H2 269-280
M/TIO @ 7
etc. 

My books are also hard to access at the moment, but can anyone, especially Russ, think of a reason why my proposal for moving COC doesn't work? 

Paul 


NEW THREAD
Punisher (original) addition

Posted by Guffawing Crow on October 12, 2000 at 14:28:40: 

He/it made a major appearance in IM112 (insert after your IM110 entry). 

No need to scurry to storage on this one....he's featured in the above mentioned cover.
 
(Talk about obscure feedback)


NEW THREAD
Someone's been naughty...

Posted by Russ Chappell on October 12, 2000 at 22:03:33: 

I'm very upset. 

About a week and a half ago, I ran across a club at Yahoo dedicated to the MCP. In fact, it's more than a little dedicated. They call themselves The Official Club of the Chronology Project of Marvel. 

And they like us so much that they lifted the copy from our home page verbatim for their Founder's Message. 

And gee, they were nice enough to have a link to my page, (the MCP), and identify it as "Founder's Personal Home Page." 

And then, they give their own name as the Founder. 

Let's see. So far we've got: 

Copyright infringement; 

Claiming affiliation with the MCP (that pesky "official" in their description); Let me say this again: Other than the Mighty Marvel Universe Webring and missingkids.com, the Marvel Chronology Project is not affiliated with any Internet entity of any kind. 

Claiming that I am the founder of their club; 

Claiming that the real founder (whose email address is on the club page) is the owner of the MCP; 

Can you fine folks understand just how high my blood pressure is right now? 

On October 2nd, I sent the following email to the founder: 

> hmmmm....
>
>Don't you think it would be appropriate to ask my permission before stealing my material and then saying that I'm the _founder_ of your yahoo club? I have nothing to do with your club.
>
>This is:
>
>A) a violation of copyright, and
>
>B) bordering on fraudulent.
>
>While I don't dispute your right to host a Marvel Chronology Project club, please immediately remove the founder's message, which is directly lifted from my website, and remove any reference to me as the founder, ie, the link from Founder's Personal Home Page.
>
>Thank you.
>Russ Chappell
>Marvel Chronology Project 

I didn't expect a response, but I did harbor some hopes that they would take the requested action. As of tonight, nothing. Tonight, I sent the following message to Yahoo customer service: 

>This is in reference to the club at the address below:
>http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/marvelchronologyproject
>
>I am the administrator and originator of the Marvel Chronology Project, located at:
>http://www.chronologyproject.com
>
>I have recently been made aware of the club at the address above. I believe this club is in violation of your terms of service on three counts, to wit:
>
>1. Paragraph 6(c): Member Conduct. Impersonating another person. The link on the home page for this club to "Founder's Personal Home Page," links to *my* personal Home Page, not his. He is impersonating me.
>
>2. Paragraph 6(c): Member Conduct. Falsely stating or misrepresenting affiliation with any entity. The description of this club is as follows: "Official Club of the Chronology Project of Marvel." This implies an affiliation with the Marvel Chronology Project, when no such affiliation exists.
>
>3. Paragraph 6(f) Member Conduct. Copyright infringement. The Founder's Message on the Club Home Page is lifted verbatim from my home page, as it existed in April, 2000, when the Yahoo Club was established. Furthermore, by claiming that the Marvel Chronology Project is his personal home page, he is falsely claiming authorship of the information on our site.
>
>On or about Monday, October 2, 2000, I sent an email to [his email address]. While acknowledging that he had the right to start a Marvel Chronology Project club on Yahoo, I asked him to remove the link from Founder's Home Page to my site, to remove the copy that he has used as the Founder's Message, and to remove any implication that he was affiliated with the Marvel Chronology Project. As of 9:30 p.m. Central Time, Thursday, October 12, 2000, he has failed to respond, and he has failed to make the requested changes.
>
>I ask your help in enforcing your terms of service.
>
>Respectfully,
>Russ Chappell
>Administrator
>Marvel Chronology Project 

Yahoo may or may not take action (from what I've heard, Yahoo has a pretty dismal record, but maybe I've heard wrong). In addition to letting off steam, I guess I'm seeking advice. I'm not one to take things like this lying down. 

This steams me.

	Reply
Re: Someone's been naughty...

Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 12, 2000 at 22:33:08: 
 
I completely understand your being upset. I would be too, if it happened to me. I think you have taken reasonable actions and hope something comes from them. 

However, try to keep things in perspective. The club was created 19 Apr 2000. The owner's profile was last updated 20 Apr 2000. I get the feeling this is someone who created the profile and club and has since not even logged on using that profile. Profiles are very easy to create on Yahoo and I'm not sure there's a limit to how many you can have. 

The club has existed for almost six months and only has two members (the founder and one other), and the second only joined about a week ago. There are no messages other than the welcome message. This club would not seem to be detracting greatly from the MCP. 

If you don't get satisfaction from Yahoo, you could always create a coughcoughfakecoughcough profile and post a message stating the club has no official ties to the MCP. 

	Reply
Re: Someone's been naughty...

Posted by SKleefeld on October 13, 2000 at 20:55:56: 

Russ - 

I know you've been (understandably) very protective of the MCP. It's by far one of the most single valuable Marvel resources available in any medium. What you've done so far seems to me the most approproate actions at this point. Should nothing come of this, I expect you're left with two recourses: 1) Put a note clearly and plainly on your front page explaining that you have no affiliation with the Yahoo club. 2) Sue them. 

Generally a lawsuit of copyright infringement is only viable if you can prove that the party in question makes money off your creation. Since they're not selling any part of your site, nor using your site for any apparent financial gain whatsoever, they could probably justifiably claim your intro as "fair use." It's actually the exact same legal wrangling that allows you to use Uatu in your banner. (It also saves my butt since I'm treading MUCH closer to copyright infringement laws.) 

Now suing them is still an option, but it would have to be under misrepresentation of character. The problem there is that a judgement would almost certainly be awarded in your favor, but the fine to the offender would be minimal given how insignificant this club seems to be. It would also be fairly costly to you, as well. 

So, I hate to say it, but I think that leaves you with a grand total of 3 viable options. 1) Write the offender again. 2) Write Yahoo again. 3) Put a note about it on your site. 

I'm sure you've already thought of all this, and I probably haven't helped any, but I empathize with your frustration and I'm very glad that I don't have similar problems. 

Sean 


NEW THREAD
Inhumans 1999 series

Posted by Masoud on October 13, 2000 at 13:22:29: 

Just read the TPB and noticed some missing appearances in the MCP. Most of these additions are pretty easy to figure where they belong. For example, if I say that Charactor A appears in INH2 6 that would appear between his listed appearance in INH2 2 & 8. I've added comments where I could on the ones not so obvious. 

Agon (BB and Maximus's father) appears in INH2 1(FB)
(Note: Body appears just after he's killed; don't know if this has been shown before) 
Archaeopteryx appears in INH2 7 & 11 
Carthus appears in INH2 2, 7, 9(FB), 11 & 12 
Bill Clinton appears in INH2 5 
Dinu appears in INH2 3 & 7 
Elejea appears in INH2 5 & 6 
Col. Edson Jarzinho appears in INH2 4, 6, 7, 10 & 11 
Kalikya appears in INH2 8 
Jay Leno appears in INH2 4 
Lockjaw appears in INH2 5 
Bill Mahar appears in INH2 4
(Note: except for Mr. Fantastic, I could not recognize the other guests on Politically Incorrect) 
Luna's last name should be listed as Maximoff (according to the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe entry) 
Nahrees appears in IHN2 3 & 7 
Neifi appears in INH2 6 & 7 
Rynda (BB and Maximus's mother) appears in INH2 1(FB) 
(same note as Agon) 
Jerry Springer appears in INH2 4 
Yuri Stalyenko appears in INH2 4, 5 (on panel; not BTS) & 9 
Sub-Mariner appears in INH2 4 (FB)
(Next appearance in issue 9(FB)) 
Toi, whose full name is Rexel Toiven, appears in INH2 7 & 8 
Ultarnt appears in INH2 3(FB)
(FB to distant past where this scientist discovers the reason behind the Inhumans mutations. I think this warrants an entry) 
Woz's full name is Dewoz


NEW THREAD
Expanding listing info

Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 14, 2000 at 15:49:08: 

I would like to suggest a listing next to each character describing their species and possibly whether they are a mutant. 

For example, if I wanted to write a story about a Kree, I could scroll through the listings until I came to: 
Bel-Dann [Kree] 

Say I wanted to look for not just a Skrull, but a mutant. Searching through, I'd find: 
Fiz [Skrull mutant] 

Other examples might be:
Anomaly [Conceptual being]
Ghaur [Terran Deviant]
Ikor [Watcher]
Jemmiah [Celestial]
Recorder [Rigellian droid]
Thanos [Terran Eternal/Titan]
Volstagg [Asgardian] 

There wouldn't have to be any reorganization to the structure of the Project, but just a word or two in brackets could tell us a lot more. 

- StAkAr Karnak 

	Reply
Re: Expanding listing info

Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 17, 2000 at 10:46:48: 
 
Second!!! I think this would make it much easier for people to use the MCP, particularly when many characters have the same name. 

But we'll probably have to come up with a definite naming convention for this to work. Alien races are easy (Skrull, Kree, Shi'ar, Celestial). To make things easier, I think all unlabeled characters should be assumed to be human. What do we do about half-breeds, though (e.g. Jack of Hearts (IIRC) and Genis, the current Captain Marvel)? 
I'm not certain we want to label mutants, though. I know some characters have been retconned to be mutants that weren't originally (e.g. Cloak & Dagger). 

I would almost want to take this a step further and label people who are the members of long-standing groups (e.g. Shi'ar Imperial Guard, Elders of the Universe). I've done this in my lists of superheroes and supervillains that Rom has encountered. The only problem here is that many characters (particularly those darn mutants) have been the members of many teams. That's why I'm not actually recommending it (just mentioning it). It might be useful to know someone is a member of the Imperial Guard, but do you care that Captain Koala was a member of the Protectors for a single issue? 

		Reply
Re: Expanding listing info

Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 21, 2000 at 17:18:53: 

In Reply to: Re: Expanding listing info posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 17, 2000 at 10:46:48: 

: Second!!! I think this would make it much easier for people to use the MCP, particularly when many characters have the same name. 

Thanks, Lee. Your check is in the mail. 

: But we'll probably have to come up with a definite naming convention for this to work. Alien races are easy (Skrull, Kree, Shi'ar, Celestial). To make things easier, I think all unlabeled characters should be assumed to be human. 

I figured the same, but what happens when we don't know what race a character is? Maybe we'd just say "Unidentified alien race". 
 
: I'm not certain we want to label mutants, though. I know some characters have been retconned to be mutants that weren't originally (e.g. Cloak & Dagger). 

Such as Namor? Although it'd be difficult in these cases, a definitive canon answer could prove helpful. 

: I would almost want to take this a step further and label people who are the members of long-standing groups (e.g. Shi'ar Imperial Guard, Elders of the Universe). 

I've conceived a way of tracking groups & teams, but I won't submit it for approval until I've put it together. 

- StAkAr 


NEW THREAD
Iron Fist volume number problems

Posted by Gary M. Miller on October 14, 2000 at 19:40:46: 

Russ & co., 

Allow me to begin the correction of something that really needs attention... simply put, you have Iron Fist, Death Sting, Sidewinder, et al. listed as appearing in Iron Fist volume 2, that is, IF2 #1, 2 and 3. This isn't precisely correct. 
What you currently have labeled as IF2 should in fact be IF3's (IF3 1, IF3 2, IF3 3). IF2 was a two-issue limited series released in 1996 featuring Iron Fist's battle against the Steel Serpent, returned after his previous appearances in M/TU 63 and 64 and whatever other appearances he has made (which I'll be submitting very shortly). 

I will work on summaries for IF2 1 and IF2 2 as soon as possible. I don't have the issues from IF3 handy to tell you which other characters need their entries changed--if you need them, I can try and dig them out soon. 

Thanks, 

-Gary (working on Steel Serpent and Jeryn Hogarth chronology fixes in another window as I type this!) 


NEW THREAD
Scarlet Spidey and Green Goblin II

Posted by mario! on October 15, 2000 at 00:55:44: 

i have some additions for scarlet spider, aka "spider-clone": 

Amazing Scarlet Spider #1 (we'll initial it ASS 1)
Nov, 1995
<<CHARACTERS: Looter,FIRST APPEARANCES: orlando (thug),mr. tso, Carrie Bradley 
VIRTUAL MORTALITY pt 2 of 4
-- gangster Mr. Tso's henchmen try to steal a virtual reality visor, but scarlet spider stops them, then goes to work, at a restaurant. then, he brings the visor to seward, who puts it on, and realizes he's trapped there and is battling some monster. Scarlet puts on another helmet to save seward and they face against manifestations of spidey's villians. Scarlet takes off the helmet, but seward is left in a coma. 

Scarlet Spider Unlimited #1 (SSU 1)
Nov, 1995
<<CHARACTERS: FIRST APPEARANCES: Spinner, Buzzard, Komodo, Crushtacean (ANIMEN), Nubia
(( Gwen Stacy, Anthony Serba, Miles Warren, Joyce Delany all appear in "Flashbacks" but it was proven that not all of these were true, so I'm not sure how to place these in the chronologies; if someone, and that's a big IF, can explain the whole, TRUE clone thing, with Norman Osborn and who was controlling who, then maybe I could figure out which Flashbacks, if any, were legit)) 
The government is searching the Jackal's warehouse for traces of the Carrion Virus; Jacob Raven sneaks into a secret passage and discovers Kaine's corpse in a special vacuole, but the Animen attack and seal Raven up with goo. Scarlet intervenes, saves Raven and is suddenly transported with the Animen to Wundagore. Nabia, a priestess, informs Scarlet of HER version of the Jackal/clone thing. Spider is than transported to the High Evolutionary's quarters, where he explains the "TRUE" clone thing, but not really. Scarlet is then transported back to the warehouse, where he discovers...Kaine's corpse is missing. 

Green Goblin #3 (GG 3)
Dec, 1995
<<CHARACTERS: Scarlet ,Ricko
FIRST APPEARANCES: El Toro Negro (villain), Joystick 
Phil Ellis, the new Green Goblin, is in love with the villain Joystick. then he meets with Spider and come up with a plan to catch Joystick. Joystick gets mad when she meets with Goblin, when its supposed to be Scarlet, but then is attacked by Toro Negro. Scarlet and Goblin save Joystick, and the Goblin gets a kiss from her, and lets her go. He goes back to his appartment where he's assaulted by Ricko. 

Scarlet Spider #2 (SCS 2)
CYBERWAR pt 3 of 4; Dec, 1995
<<CHARACTERS: II, Spider, Scarlet EllisFIRST APPEARANCES: Agent Wade and Agent Briggs (FBI), Master Programmer,Mr. Kannor 
undercover agent Wade is caught by Doc Ock and put in the cyberworld, where's he's asaulted with images. Agent Briggs is about to arrest Spider when a Spider double appears and attacks. Mr. Tso and Mr. Kannor meet with Smythe to discuss the progress in the design of a computer chip. Scarlet battles his double, while Stunner talks with Wade. 

Also, I got some issues from the Green Goblin series from 1995/96. 

Green Goblin #1 
OCT, 1995
<<CHARACTERS: IV, Goblin Green Urich
FIRST APPEARANCES: Ricko, Lynn Walsh, Ken Urich, 
Phil urich is working at the daily bugle. He has dinner with his family. Then he goes out with his friends, including ricko the sicko, and he discovers norman's secret green goblin hideout. He gets covered with the secret formula, puts on the mask, and becomes the new GG. 

Green Goblin #4
JAN, 1996
<<CHARACTERS: IV, Goblin Green Ben Urich Phil VFIRST APPEARANCES: Ronald Vancolder 
Well, Ricko the Sicko confronts Phil and threatens him unless he gets him info from the Daily Bugle. Then the Hobgoblin flies overhead and Phil is convinced he is following him. Ben Urich's book "dynasty of evil" about the green goblin arrives. Phil discovers that the Hobgoblin was in the area watching his ex-wife, who is remarried to Vancolder. Vancolder is gonna hold a press conference about the Money Train. Phil calls the Fantastic Four but the Thing doesn't believe him. So when the Hobgoblin attacks the train, the GG tries to stop him. Thing arrives with SWAT and Hobgoblin flees. Phil escapes. 

GREEN GOBLIN IV
GG 1
WEB 125
PPTSS 225
GG 3
GG 4 

SPIDER-CLONE
NW 64~NW 59
NW 65
ASS 1
ASSU 1
NW 66
GG 3
SCS 2
NW 66
NW 67
(I don't have new warriors so I put the comics in with the NW, in what I thought was a logical order. I'm not sure exactly where they go, so u're gonna have to be the judge. Sorry) 

KAINE
PPTSS 227
SSU 1
PPTSS 231-FB
(I don't have pptss 231 so I'm not sure exactly where it takes place, but I think that that is a reasonable guess. I wrote your synopsis, so u can change it if I'm incorrect) 

BEN URICH
ASM 400
GG 1
PPTSS 225
PPTSS 226
GG 3
GG 4
DD 346 

DORIS URICH
DD 339
GG 1
ASM 433 

DR. OCTOPUS II
PPTSS 229
ASS 1
SCS 2
ASM 409 

LOOTER
ASM @26/4
ASS 1
SENSM 22-FB 

JACOB RAVEN
PPTSS 226
SSU 1
PPTSS 231-FB 

MR. TSO
ASS 1
SCS 2 

SEWARD TRAINER
PPTSS 229
ASS 1
ASM 407 

HIGH EVOLUTIONARY
T 489
ASS 1
QS 9-FB 

RICKO THE SICKO
GG 1
GG 3
GG 4 

ALISTAIRE SMYTHE
ASM 373
SCS 2 

JOE ROBERTSON
PPTSS 228
GG 4
DB 1 

THING
X 48
GG 4
FF 408 

HOBGOBLIN V
ASMU 9
GG 4
S-M 68 

LYNN WALSH
GG 1
GG 3
GG 4 

ok, i know that was long, and forgive me. this is harder work than it seems. i have some disputes with the DAILY BUGLE miniseries, which i'll voice later, cause i'm tired now. i hope this helps u for now. later 


NEW THREAD
Star Thief, Ego, Ego-Prime

Posted by Gary M. Miller on October 15, 2000 at 13:24:58: 

Hi Russ, 

This time around I found no character entries where there should be, IMO. I'll tackle them in order. The books are, to my knowledge, included in the chronology, so without further ado... 

Star Thief: Did you know there are three characters named this? You only have the most recent one listed, Ditmil Pirvat. He should be Star Thief III (note the absence of a hyphen). The first two Star Thiefs were one earthling (can't remember his real name--someone check for me?) who projected his powers over a great distance to fight Adam Warlock. The second was an alien girl who did the same in fighting the new Defenders. Their appearances are as follows: 

STAR THIEF I/? 
WLOCK 13
WLOCK 14 

STAR THIEF II/? 
DEF 150 

STAR THIEF III/DITMIL PIRVAT 
(follow entry for the currently listed STAR-THIEF) 

Next one: Ego. He did not appear in Q 14 or 15; that was the character I'll be getting to next; delete those appearances from his list. And I believe, though I'll definitely look it up next time I get the chance, that his appearance in T 201 is a flashback and so should be listed as T 201-FB. 

Now, after all that, technically the Quasar book appearances of "Ego" should instead be referred to as appearances of Ego-Prime, a character spawned from Ego in the flashback sequence in T 201. I believe his appearances are as follows: 

EGO-PRIME 
T 201-FB
T 200
T 201
T 202
T 203
Q 14
Q 15
Q 16-BTS (does not appear, but all the same, the issue takes place in and around the Stranger's world, so he's got to be there somewhere in the shuffle) 

I will have to double-check my copies of THOR #197-199 to make sure I've covered all the appearances of Ego-Prime (he may have been BTS in any of those 3). In the meantime, I'll give you all the above to play with. Can someone else confirm these appearances? 

-Gary 


NEW THREAD
GENX -1

Posted by Russ Chappell on October 15, 2000 at 14:44:55: 

Does anyone have ideas on where Generation X -1 should occur?

	Reply
Re: GENX -1

Posted by Michel Racaud on October 15, 2000 at 16:09:19: 
 
The White Queen is sixteen and becomes allied with the Dark Beast at the end of the issue, so it's after GENX 48 - FB where we see the three Frost sisters, after GENX 24 - FB where Emma leaves the asylum and after GENX 49 - FB where we see Emma wanders alone in the streets of New York. 

For Dark Beast, it should be his first chronological appearance : it's not been long since he's been sent in our era, he doesn't know who he is and just vaguely remembers he made experiments on human people. 

For Harry Leland, it also should be his first chronological appearance. He already has contacts with the Hellfire Club, but doesn't belong to the Inner Circle yet. 

Banshee doesn't work anymore for Interpol and is an inspector at NYPD, probably not for a very long time. I would put this appearance after his last spy's mission in X@3/2 - FB and before he arrests Black Tom in XFOR 31 - FB3. 


NEW THREAD
Awesome Android chronology

Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 17, 2000 at 11:02:55: 

I mentioned this to Russ a while back, but don't know if he's had time to do anything towards it. It appears that the Thinker's Awesome Android is missing from the MCP! I lack the knowledge to compile anything close to a complete chronology for him, but here is my meager contribution to get it started. 

[...]
ROM 14
CA 311-FB
CA 311
[...] 

I don't know where it appeared immediately before ROM or after Captain America left it standing in a barn. 

	Reply
Re: Awesome Android chronology

Posted by Guffawing Crow on November 06, 2000 at 15:46:24: 
 
Well, I know the Awesome Android made an appearance or two in Iron Man, circa vol 1 (74 and 75...I believe). And it had a couple of FF appearances. 

I could verify some of it if you want to put this as an addition.

		Reply
Re: Awesome Android chronology

Posted by Flank McLargehuge on November 07, 2000 at 02:34:18: 

Its most recent appearance, I'd imagine, was in THUNDERBOLTS #2. 

			Reply
Re: Awesome Android chronology

Posted by Yellow Claw on November 09, 2000 at 04:52:19: 
 
That wasn't the awesome android, just another similar android. The bona fide Awesome Android appeared most recently in Fantastic Four (vol. 3) issue 23. 

Cheers, 
Yellow Claw. 

				Reply
Re: Awesome Android chronology

Posted by Jeph! on November 09, 2000 at 20:25:41: 
 
Wait ... wasn't that Primus, the Thinker's companion for most of his appearances in New Warriors? I really liked that fellow ... and this appearance doesn't sem to be in the MCP. Maybe I have it wrong, but I thought that was him...
 
-Jeph
been gone a while ... must catch up... 

					Reply
Re: Awesome Android chronology

Posted by Yellow Claw on November 13, 2000 at 08:56:25: 

Could have been - I haven't read much NW 

Cheers, 
YC

						Reply
Re: Awesome Android chronology

Posted by FlankMcLargehuge on November 26, 2000 at 01:09:16:
 
Big fat nope. Primus, "a department store mannequin from Chernobyl" is yellow and has rounded curves, and though he can alter his shape and is faceless, he can't do half the stuff the construct in this story could. The android in here was gray and voicelss, and the Thinker called him "my Awesome Android." No mention was made to either Primus or anything Warriors-related. 

		Reply
Re: Awesome Android chronology

Posted by Guffawing Crow on November 07, 2000 at 14:37:43: 

In Reply to: Re: Awesome Android chronology posted by Guffawing Crow on November 06, 2000 at 15:46:24:
  
: I could verify some of it if you want to put this as an addition. 

Made an appearance in TOS 72 and FF15....the one in IM 74/75 was a green android, so I don't think it was of the "awesome" variety. Ahem.




